Strange days' phaze daze
Yeah, these are some strange days that I'm living. So odd to be experiencing life for the first time apart from the world views I am so used to having. Everything seems so brand new to me now. Its not that life has changed... just my perspective. And I don't really have a solid new world view... so it feels like I'm just in a daze watching things. Watching myself even... I feel like I'm in some sort of temporary transitional phaze daze. Maybe a daze isn't the right word. Its more like a intermittent out of body experience. (maybe daze was a better word) I hear myself saying things that, as my Native American friend said to me recently, "just don't sound like [me]." I'm not saying bad or evil things (At least I don't think they are bad or evil)... just things that have never been heard from my mouth. EVER. Things that were once so black and white, just aren't anymore.
Read more about my daze...Its not the run of the mill work-grocerystore-diaper-changing situations that are strange at all, because nothing significant in my life has changed in that regard. But there have been several more serious situations where I found myself,... um... a bit without direction.
Last week a client of mine who I've known only casually over the past six months opened up to me that his marriage is on the rocks. We talked a bit and he explained that he works too much... and his wife won't forgive him for a previous infidelity of his in the marriage. I used to have all the answers for this type of guy. Or at least I thought I did. Well... I didn't think I had ALL the answers, but definitely the most important ones. The night he opened up to me, I was just kind of caught of guard. In the short time we spent together, I encouraged on the things that I hold to be True. I encouraged him to be a good father, to consider his kids and the effect that a divorce would have on them. I challenged him to weigh the importance of his work versus his family. And I offered him hope that if he and his wife wanted to make it work, there was a way to do that. He told me that he was thinking of going to some sort of marriage class at a local church. I told him I thought that was a good idea. I think he left encouraged, but I was kind of scratching my head. What can I say to this man that is honest and earnest besides expressing that I hope good things for him? In the past, all of my answers were in Christ.
Also recently, I heard that a friend of a friend of mine was changing the terms of their marriage to be an "open marriage." To be totally honest, I thought it was such a left-wing-hippy-Californian thing to do. In the past, I would have put the situation in the sin box in my head, and just, um... lovingly judged them from a distance. Maybe if we talked I would try to talk to them about Jesus and point them toward Him trying to show them that He loves them by my general nice and kind attitude toward their blatant disregard for what Everybody knows is right. But now, I don't know. For the first time ever I don't have a snug little box to categorize them in. And I was quite uneasy about my lack of position on their decision. Just on this trip I learned that in fact, the couple is not going to try an open marriage (but don't start celebrating quite yet)... instead they are divorcing. The wife, as it turns out, has decided to embrace her homosexuality. They have several children who will suffer the consequences of this divorce, which we all agree sucks. But what beyond that painfully obvious result?? Apart from the bible's teaching on the issue (which I don't put much stock in at the moment), what do I have to say to this woman who says she likes other women? Should I tell her that she just needs to stay married for the sake of the kids and have sex with her husband even though she doesn't desire him? Wouldn't that, more likely than not, just lead to lies and betrayal behind closed doors particularly if they don't believe in Jesus or the teachings of the Bible? And this woman is not ignorant to the Bible. She is the daughter of a man who has been in very real, heart felt ministry at his local church. For several years this woman followed Christ with everything she had.
On this trip down to LA this weekend, I met a guy my same age at a bowling alley. He and I got to talking and it turns out that he is a struggling young Christian turned from his partying ways. He just completed a year long recovery program that has helped him turn from drugs and alcohol. Two months back in to normal society, he is in the process of redefining his life as he attempts to live a clean and sober life dedicated to Christ. As he talked I felt this enormous sense of obligation to guide him down "the path"... but I didn't want to be a hypocrite. Soooo... I decided to be honest with. (gasp!) I told him that my life story to this point was nearly the exact opposite of him: pretty squeaky clean my whole life, but that now my faith was actually in a very demolished condition. I don't know if he didn't hear me or what because five minutes later he began asking me for advice about following Christ. I figured it wouldn't hurt to help the guy along in his pursuit of Truth so we ended up talking for about an hour or so and I shared with him what I knew about Christ's teachings on the subjects he inquired about. I think he was very encouraged. At least, he said that about ten thousand times... so... yeah, I guess he was. It was so weird. Here I was ministering to this guy like a pastor (like I have to many other people in days gone by), and yet I am not sure I believe any of it myself. I was sure to use words that preserved my integrity. I said stuff like, "If you believe Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins... then you have to look at the verses that say X,Y, Z." ... And I did tell him right out of the chute where I stood... so I don't feel like I was dishonest with the guy. And he was genuinely encouraged, so thats good. He seems like a really great guy. I hope the best for him. But it was just ... weird. Like an out of body experience. I was sort of watching the whole dialogue from afar. I got back to the house after dropping him at off at home and told my wife I was doing my Just-In-Case-Work. (sick humor... so sue me.)
Sunday morning we went to church with a friend of my moms. She had been raised Catholic her whole life and because of that experience was horrified of the idea of a church service. For some reason though, she joined us. It was so bizarre for me to imagine that this middleclass woman, growing up in America, ... had never been to a protestant church before. She had never heard the Gospel (according to Evangelical America that is). It was so weird to be seeing all of this happen and not have that feeling inside of me that I would expect to have... a feeling of excitement that she might come to be a believer in Christ. Typically, I'd be psyched! But... for now, I just watch. Almost like I'm watching a movie unfold right before my eyes.
And then, towards the end of the Sunday service, the pastor says, "Can't stop drinking? Jesus can!" He was putting the exclamation mark to his point that Jesus lives inside of believers and gives us access to "unimaginable power" if we'd only have faith. At that moment, I thought of all the addicts in the church at large. I thought of men I know who have enormous faith in Christ, but can't control their sexual appetite. I thought of all the hurt within the Church... the people who try with all their might, but who never seem to overcome their challenges. Also, I thought of all the noble, kind, faithful men and women I've known who died tragic deaths, all the while clinging to the hope (faith in some cases) that they would be healed miraculously. And I know all the Christian answers to all of these complaints/accusations/frustrations. I know them well. But that morning at church, I did not feel like myself at all. I felt unlike anything I've ever felt in my whole life. I felt removed. Apart. Separated from. It didn't hurt. It was sad, but not painful.
Sad, weird, confusing. Strange days' phaze daze if I ever heard of one, thats for sure. But, ya know, I'm in no crazy hurry to pick up some sort of new world view just to have one. I feel pretty liberated at the moment, for better or for worse. And I certainly haven't found any better solution to life's many dilemmas than the one presented in the offer of Christ.
If only I could believe it to be True again! ...
Read more about my daze...Its not the run of the mill work-grocerystore-diaper-changing situations that are strange at all, because nothing significant in my life has changed in that regard. But there have been several more serious situations where I found myself,... um... a bit without direction.
Last week a client of mine who I've known only casually over the past six months opened up to me that his marriage is on the rocks. We talked a bit and he explained that he works too much... and his wife won't forgive him for a previous infidelity of his in the marriage. I used to have all the answers for this type of guy. Or at least I thought I did. Well... I didn't think I had ALL the answers, but definitely the most important ones. The night he opened up to me, I was just kind of caught of guard. In the short time we spent together, I encouraged on the things that I hold to be True. I encouraged him to be a good father, to consider his kids and the effect that a divorce would have on them. I challenged him to weigh the importance of his work versus his family. And I offered him hope that if he and his wife wanted to make it work, there was a way to do that. He told me that he was thinking of going to some sort of marriage class at a local church. I told him I thought that was a good idea. I think he left encouraged, but I was kind of scratching my head. What can I say to this man that is honest and earnest besides expressing that I hope good things for him? In the past, all of my answers were in Christ.
Also recently, I heard that a friend of a friend of mine was changing the terms of their marriage to be an "open marriage." To be totally honest, I thought it was such a left-wing-hippy-Californian thing to do. In the past, I would have put the situation in the sin box in my head, and just, um... lovingly judged them from a distance. Maybe if we talked I would try to talk to them about Jesus and point them toward Him trying to show them that He loves them by my general nice and kind attitude toward their blatant disregard for what Everybody knows is right. But now, I don't know. For the first time ever I don't have a snug little box to categorize them in. And I was quite uneasy about my lack of position on their decision. Just on this trip I learned that in fact, the couple is not going to try an open marriage (but don't start celebrating quite yet)... instead they are divorcing. The wife, as it turns out, has decided to embrace her homosexuality. They have several children who will suffer the consequences of this divorce, which we all agree sucks. But what beyond that painfully obvious result?? Apart from the bible's teaching on the issue (which I don't put much stock in at the moment), what do I have to say to this woman who says she likes other women? Should I tell her that she just needs to stay married for the sake of the kids and have sex with her husband even though she doesn't desire him? Wouldn't that, more likely than not, just lead to lies and betrayal behind closed doors particularly if they don't believe in Jesus or the teachings of the Bible? And this woman is not ignorant to the Bible. She is the daughter of a man who has been in very real, heart felt ministry at his local church. For several years this woman followed Christ with everything she had.
On this trip down to LA this weekend, I met a guy my same age at a bowling alley. He and I got to talking and it turns out that he is a struggling young Christian turned from his partying ways. He just completed a year long recovery program that has helped him turn from drugs and alcohol. Two months back in to normal society, he is in the process of redefining his life as he attempts to live a clean and sober life dedicated to Christ. As he talked I felt this enormous sense of obligation to guide him down "the path"... but I didn't want to be a hypocrite. Soooo... I decided to be honest with. (gasp!) I told him that my life story to this point was nearly the exact opposite of him: pretty squeaky clean my whole life, but that now my faith was actually in a very demolished condition. I don't know if he didn't hear me or what because five minutes later he began asking me for advice about following Christ. I figured it wouldn't hurt to help the guy along in his pursuit of Truth so we ended up talking for about an hour or so and I shared with him what I knew about Christ's teachings on the subjects he inquired about. I think he was very encouraged. At least, he said that about ten thousand times... so... yeah, I guess he was. It was so weird. Here I was ministering to this guy like a pastor (like I have to many other people in days gone by), and yet I am not sure I believe any of it myself. I was sure to use words that preserved my integrity. I said stuff like, "If you believe Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins... then you have to look at the verses that say X,Y, Z." ... And I did tell him right out of the chute where I stood... so I don't feel like I was dishonest with the guy. And he was genuinely encouraged, so thats good. He seems like a really great guy. I hope the best for him. But it was just ... weird. Like an out of body experience. I was sort of watching the whole dialogue from afar. I got back to the house after dropping him at off at home and told my wife I was doing my Just-In-Case-Work. (sick humor... so sue me.)
Sunday morning we went to church with a friend of my moms. She had been raised Catholic her whole life and because of that experience was horrified of the idea of a church service. For some reason though, she joined us. It was so bizarre for me to imagine that this middleclass woman, growing up in America, ... had never been to a protestant church before. She had never heard the Gospel (according to Evangelical America that is). It was so weird to be seeing all of this happen and not have that feeling inside of me that I would expect to have... a feeling of excitement that she might come to be a believer in Christ. Typically, I'd be psyched! But... for now, I just watch. Almost like I'm watching a movie unfold right before my eyes.
And then, towards the end of the Sunday service, the pastor says, "Can't stop drinking? Jesus can!" He was putting the exclamation mark to his point that Jesus lives inside of believers and gives us access to "unimaginable power" if we'd only have faith. At that moment, I thought of all the addicts in the church at large. I thought of men I know who have enormous faith in Christ, but can't control their sexual appetite. I thought of all the hurt within the Church... the people who try with all their might, but who never seem to overcome their challenges. Also, I thought of all the noble, kind, faithful men and women I've known who died tragic deaths, all the while clinging to the hope (faith in some cases) that they would be healed miraculously. And I know all the Christian answers to all of these complaints/accusations/frustrations. I know them well. But that morning at church, I did not feel like myself at all. I felt unlike anything I've ever felt in my whole life. I felt removed. Apart. Separated from. It didn't hurt. It was sad, but not painful.
Sad, weird, confusing. Strange days' phaze daze if I ever heard of one, thats for sure. But, ya know, I'm in no crazy hurry to pick up some sort of new world view just to have one. I feel pretty liberated at the moment, for better or for worse. And I certainly haven't found any better solution to life's many dilemmas than the one presented in the offer of Christ.
If only I could believe it to be True again! ...
18 Comments:
I've been there.
And I don't remember quite how I got out of it. I just know I did. And now I'm in a better place than that.
I still don't have a super firm footing, but I do know that the G-d of the bible is real.
My advice is this: Seperate christianity from the church as is normal today in America; the chruch in America has a terrible foundation coming all of the way from pagan rome incorporating itself into christianity, up to the freemason roots of the founding fathers of America.
Take a while to go back to the gre greek and hebrew of our bible, and come back to this; The purpose of life is to glorify G-d. That should be why you live.
I don't know if that helped any. I just know I wish I had someone to offer me some help when I was where you are at.
I'll pray for you.
.me
Hey stranger! Thank you for the encouragement. I do appreciate it!I agree wholeheartedly with your advice to seperate the God of the Bible from the American church experience. They are two entirely different issues. Very possible to be strong in your faith with the God of the Bible while taking much issue with the Church. (and sadly the reverse is probably true in some poor chaps' minds!)
Good thing that it is about God and not about us. That young man could be encouraged, not because you believed what you were telling him, but because what you were telling him was truth. God's Word does not return void. It is sad to hear of your struggle and I pray that you will find your way out.
I am curious to hear you say that you don't know what to say to these people that would choose thier own needs over the needs of those that they supposedly love. This is what loving others is really all about after all. I must admit that I certainly don't have the strength on my own to love others this way. Therefore, I am so glad that I can turn to God and ask Him to help me love others and He does.
At the same time we have to be careful not to harshly judge others just because they are trapped in real bondage. I had a friend recently say 'if she really loved her children she would just quit using drugs so that she could properly sove them, so she must not love them' speaking about a mother who is allowing someone else to take care of her children because she isn't doing agood job.
I find it difficult to say she doesn't love them, and yet... Are we judged by what real love looks like? Interesting thought.
Man judges on the outward appearance, "but the Lord looks upon the heart."
We can/should and are told to judge a "tree" by its fruit.
Good fruit = good tree
Bad fruit = broken, sick, or bad tree
Not so hard as long as we hold our own fruit up to the same test!
Woman of Faith,
Your writing reflects both where my heart has been in the past (in the first part of your writing)... and where my heart is now (in the second part).
Your first suggestion is certainly a nice ideal. But (stealing a page out of Bertrand Russell's book here) I think that it more often than not leads to lies, two-facedness, and betrayals more than it does a peaceful home and/or true change. (Russell wrote about this as he pointed to the fact that a "Christian" society might do a good job putting away public mistresses by causing folks to feel guilty about them, but while doing so the soctiey also causes the hidden red-light districts to flourish because the vast majority of men are not fully controllable by their culture's moral standards in the area of sexuality.)
"I find it difficult to say she doesn't love them..." - You are able to see that distinction with the drug addict, I'm somehow finding that line just about everywhere.
Let me point out that I do not believe that Christ found the line to be as far removed as I do now. He certainly wasn't too fond of the Pharisees nor the would-be-disciples, the one who wouldn't sell all he owned and the other who wanted to bury his parents.
Tree in the healing,
"Not so hard as long as we hold our own fruit up to the same test!" - The difficulty I find is when the fruit produced by "them" has the Christian fruit beat hands down. We Christian types can be prety messed up. And I'm not talking about my church break up experience. I'm pointing to the fact that stats tells us divorce rates are identical to the rest of the US population and that porn use is above fifty percent of congregants. Now ... I know that there are "sick" people in the church looking for healing. And I know that there are plenty of fabulous and genuine people too. But from my personal point of view, I see no better ... nor worse ... Christian or non.
Case in point is this couple thats getting divorced. They are great, loving people. I was so knee-jerk ready to categorize the girl as unloving and selfish... but found myself unable to. Who am I to judge her? She loves her kids. She even loves the man she is married to in many ways. And her personal path in this time is certainly not an easy one. I guess that at the moment, I'd prefer her to be honest and cause some pain than to deceive and cause more.
That line of judgement that used to define my life hase been moved so far back now. It does still exist. I'm not suggesting that fathers who molest their children should be allowed to do so because they are being honest.
Of course, all that said, if the God of the Bible exists... then, as Woman of Faith alluded to in her interesting question... we all got some 'splainin' to do. (unless we find Him to be somehow much much much more merciful and graceful than we expect... maybe He will remember He made us this way?)
Actually, He made us without sin in the beginning, though perhaps with the propensity to sin. Sin entered the world and God let it. So on the one hand He caused it to be, if you will. But that is because it means something to Him that we have free will and the ability to (some would argue this point) think for ourselves.
Old argument I know, but would you really feel loved and would that love mean anything if the person who loves you and honors you had no choice?
Miroslav, would the love that your lovely wife had for you fill you with such comfort and love if you knew it was her only option? I don't believe it would. In fact a book I read recently talked about how men need to not just have sex whenever they want it, but that it is extremely important to 85% or better of them to be desired. Since God created us in His image, I believe that He wants us to desire Him because He is glorious, Awesome,majestic etc. Not just because that is all that we could do because we don't know any better. I am sure that other have stated this much more eloquently than me, but here we can began to see the problem if God had created a perfect world without the propensity for sin.
Woman of Faith,
I'm definately in the 85% ... thats for dang sure!
To answer your other questions, I agree with your point that TrueLove cannot exist apart from FreeWill. But again a paradox. All this importance placed on "choosing," and yet we are told clearly that SavingFaith is a GIFT so that none of us can boast.
As a seperate point, I cannot see how a God defined as Love could knowingly create people who have no possibility for salvation, who in fact are PRE-DESTINED to hell. I know you believe Christ to be the solution to that problem... and you've mentioned previously that you don't quite buy in to Reformed theology's claims that Salvation has much more to do with God's choosing than it does our part... but lets look at Waaaaaaayyy back when in the Old Testament. What of all the other people created, judged, and condemned to hell who were not Jews. They never had a shot.
That is really messed up.
Rhonda,
Word up sista. I agree with you about the whole honesty thing. I find myself saying over and over again, "I prefer painful honesty to hidden hypocrisy." My wife and I talked about this last night as a matter of fact!
Miroslav said...
>Waaaaaaayyy back when in the Old Testament. What of all the other people created, judged, and condemned to hell who were not Jews. They never had a shot.<
I once posed a similar concern to a chaplain. His reply: "If someone [let's say it's one of those "other people"] earnestly asks God to show him the truth, I believe God would honor that request."
Rahab was one of those "other people," and she found her way into the good graces of the Israel of God. And whatzername: "Your God is my God."
Spiritual truth does reside in the promises of God. It is not exclusive to any particular nation, race or tribe. (Okay, there was the circumcision thing, back then, joining to Israel; and being ingrafted, spiritually, into the Israel of God, even now; but that all goes back to the *belief* of the "other.")
God's promises are true for all souls.
David Porta,DDS,
Romans 9:16 "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Matthew 13 "17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." - Hm. I don't think the chaplain is right.
The idse that God reveals himself to anybody who REALLY wants to know is an answer that I used to accept. But come on... that is stating then that everybody else (NewAgers, agnostics, Budhists, etc.) do/didnot earnestly seek the Truth. Rather arrogant if you think about it (the idea, not you.)
Also is probably some type of self realizing prophecy type of statement. (ie. oh, you don't believe this? then you obviously aren't TRULY seeking....)
David Porta said...
>Chaplain: "If someone earnestly asks God to show him the truth."
Miroslav said...
>do/didnot earnestly seek the Truth
>TRULY seeking....
"ask God" vs. "seek"
Have they asked God?
Paul sez:
>since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God<
>when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them<
So...
"If someone earnestly asks God to show him the truth."
mr. d said:
>I was convicted enough to pray to God, not the typical sinner’s prayer, but an earnest prayer nonetheless. I prayed, “God, if you are really there, then show me.” Somehow God honored that prayer, and I am still not sure why. I think implicit in my prayer was that if I found Truth, then I would pursue it wholeheartedly, wherever it might take me. I did not state it in my prayer, but I believed that a man should follow truth, even though it might require courage.Anyway the next day I had what I call a small revelation, in which God not only showed me his reality, but in a few seconds showed me how he had intervened in my brief life of 19 years. I was completely alone, in tears, and strongly gripped in the presence of God. How many people do you know who accept Christ on their own, unassisted by others?<
"I ended my first book with the words 'no answer'.
I know now, Lord, why you utter no answer.
You are yourself the answer.
Before your face questions die away.
What other answer would suffice?
Only words, words; to be led out to battle against other words.
Long did I hate you, long did I fear you. "
'TIL WE HAVE FACES by C. S. Lewis
I haven't read this book yet, though it is up for discussion in an email group I am in and sounds deep and awesome. Stole the quote from someone's email :)
Miroslav,
Where in the Bible does it say God predestined some to hell? I do think that is a pretty crass interpetation of a merciful God who gives ample and plentiful calls to all to trust. So show me the scripture and how you came to believe this extraordinary doctrine.
Forgive my rudeness. I suppose that if I believed he chose to put particular people in hell, I might have problems with him too. What a terrible belief? How can you find it in scripture?
Pat
DavidPorta, DDS,
Yes... I remember my Mormon friends telling me the exact same thing. If I only TRULY asked, I would receive the next step of revelation from the HolyGhost.
Mama to 3 for now,
Gotta love CS Lewis.
Mr D,
No offense taken.
Romans 8-9. Not explicitely stated, only by process of elmination. Only those who were predestined to become saved will.. .therefore... if you were not predestined to be saved, you were (in effect) predestined to hell.
>Have they asked God?<
Miroslav said...
>I remember my Mormon friends telling me the exact same thing.<
And God's reply? "Get thee behind me, Satan!"
"ouch" - say my mormon readers.
Ya know, if God didn't leave the difficult things out of the bible, why should we leave them out of your blog?
If David Porta, DDS, says he sees something "satanic" about Mormonism -- maybe he has the research to show for it.
And maybe your Mormon readers WILL say "Ouch." And maybe that "ouch" will make them want to investigate their faith...and what could be wrong with that?
1) Agreed, not suggesting otherwise. See my discussion with Mr.D for proof. ;D
2) Welp, one fairly obvious "problem" with D.Porta's comment was that he wasn't speaking for D.Porta. He wrote: "God's reply? 'Get thee behind me, Satan!'" Totally his right to do so, but it doesn't get my two thumbs up!
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
Mormons are very good citizens, except when they're not.
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