A dialoge with Mr. D
(The following was originally posted as a comment to a previous post, but the I'd like to elevate this "discussion" to a more visible place... and so, it has morphed into a full fledged POST! *oohs-aahhhhs abound from the audience. This is written by a friend of a friend, a man of faith in response to what he is witnessing in my spiritual journey.)
Miroslav -
I have the advantage of reading your web page and coming to know of your walk through life, but I realize that the same is not possible for you as I do not have a blog. So I thought it fitting for me to share a bit of my perspective so that you understand a bit of me. Hopefully I won’t bore you to death!
When I was raised as a child my father, who is not a Christian, taught me somehow a reverence for truth. I do not think he taught it on purpose- but more accidentally. At any rate, I did not go to church and was “amused” by those who did. I do not think I actually met someone who knew what it meant to be a Christian, at least in any discussions we had. I enjoyed talking to Christians and abusing their weak notions of faith. I was very interested in world views, and about as intellectual as a son of a farmer gets.
Two people I met in junior college were to change me forever. They not only had confidence in what they believed but they also had answers about the world around me. To put it simply, I rejected their “invitation”, smiling at it, but on the inside I was rattled. I went home and read the book of Revelation, since it was a book they seemed to cite a lot. How many people do you know who have found Christ through the book of Revelation? After reading it, I was convicted enough to pray to God, not the typical sinner’s prayer, but an earnest prayer nonetheless. I prayed, “God, if you are really there, then show me.” Somehow God honored that prayer, and I am still not sure why. I think implicit in my prayer was that if I found Truth, then I would pursue it wholeheartedly, wherever it might take me. I did not state it in my prayer, but I believed that a man should follow truth, even though it might require courage.Anyway the next day I had what I call a small revelation, in which God not only showed me his reality, but in a few seconds showed me how he had intervened in my brief life of 19 years. I was completely alone, in tears, and strongly gripped in the presence of God. How many people do you know who accept Christ on their own, unassisted by others?
I later married one of the people who testified to me at college, which is a nice connection to tell people about. But the reason I am telling you about all this (if you haven’t gone to sleep by now) is that I strongly believe Christ will honor your seeking truth. The key to your pursuit, I believe, is that you are committed completely to follow that truth wherever it may take you.
The Biblical passage to suggest this? Christ not only said I am the way, but he also said he is the truth. I do think your pursuit of truth is admirable. I met the Christ of Truth before I met the Christ of the Way, and it was to that truth I totally surrendered. How did it change my world view? I was totally involved in evolution, thought I had the world figured out, and was adept at making my point. Those first few months I had to rethink an awful lot of things, and there were many times I felt like I was being ripped apart mentally. It was a gruesome experience, not unlike the kind of experience given by Lewis in The Great Divorce. It felt like it was costing me everything I was, and I suppose the calling does indeed do that.So as far as I am concerned you can ask me anything, doubt everything, but have to be committed to finding Truth. If that is the way you are approaching this, you will do well on your journey. If not, then perhaps you need to mend your pursuit somewhat.
So does that make everything as clear as mud? Anyway I do thank you for inviting me to share your blog. I enjoy discussions and thoughts and things. Can you tell?
Mr. D
** Our previous comments:
Mr. D said...
C.S. Lewis of course came to faith from the opposite side. That is while you were reared in a church that perhaps emphasized feeling, and while a child you perhaps learned to feel and sense the presence of Christ.
Lewis,on the other hand,had a remote history (though he did indeed have a great grandfather who had been a reverend)from Christianity. He did struggle with girls and sexual behavior that was wild. But his history was remote in the sense that he was very well educated, and had not the feeling.
So he approached God from a knowledge basis, but in the end decided that he had to trust.Do you see what I mean when I am saying that is sort of the opposite spectrum from you? I think you are questioning and gaining your world views now, rather than at first.
Would you agree with that?
Miroslav said...
Mr. D,Thank you for your input! TRULY appreciated!
Yes, I agree that I was given the tools to be able to trust God emotionally and spiritually early on in life. But I don't know that my knowledge suffered as a result. Not sure if that is an implication from your comment.
I gained strong world views through my emotional and spiritual trust in Christ which propelled me to gain more knowledge of the Scriptures and Christian theology to support, challenge, and change said views. So yeah, it appears that our journey (mine vs that of C.S. Lewis) is very much the opposite.
Unfortunately, though my heart still desires to trust God and I've pursed education of the Bible and understanding of God's ways, I'm now left with a faith that could only be called "shaky" on a good day. I've gone my whole life questioning my faith and accepting the answers that Christ (and the Bible) give. Now, I don't have faith in those answers.
I agree that I am now questioning my world views and beliefs IN THEIR ENTIRETY for the first time in my adult life. Before my questions where always asked with an underlying faith in Christ and the Bible supporting my search for Truth. So this is a whole new ballgame for me now.
More thoughts from you on this path please!
Miroslav -
I have the advantage of reading your web page and coming to know of your walk through life, but I realize that the same is not possible for you as I do not have a blog. So I thought it fitting for me to share a bit of my perspective so that you understand a bit of me. Hopefully I won’t bore you to death!
When I was raised as a child my father, who is not a Christian, taught me somehow a reverence for truth. I do not think he taught it on purpose- but more accidentally. At any rate, I did not go to church and was “amused” by those who did. I do not think I actually met someone who knew what it meant to be a Christian, at least in any discussions we had. I enjoyed talking to Christians and abusing their weak notions of faith. I was very interested in world views, and about as intellectual as a son of a farmer gets.
Two people I met in junior college were to change me forever. They not only had confidence in what they believed but they also had answers about the world around me. To put it simply, I rejected their “invitation”, smiling at it, but on the inside I was rattled. I went home and read the book of Revelation, since it was a book they seemed to cite a lot. How many people do you know who have found Christ through the book of Revelation? After reading it, I was convicted enough to pray to God, not the typical sinner’s prayer, but an earnest prayer nonetheless. I prayed, “God, if you are really there, then show me.” Somehow God honored that prayer, and I am still not sure why. I think implicit in my prayer was that if I found Truth, then I would pursue it wholeheartedly, wherever it might take me. I did not state it in my prayer, but I believed that a man should follow truth, even though it might require courage.Anyway the next day I had what I call a small revelation, in which God not only showed me his reality, but in a few seconds showed me how he had intervened in my brief life of 19 years. I was completely alone, in tears, and strongly gripped in the presence of God. How many people do you know who accept Christ on their own, unassisted by others?
I later married one of the people who testified to me at college, which is a nice connection to tell people about. But the reason I am telling you about all this (if you haven’t gone to sleep by now) is that I strongly believe Christ will honor your seeking truth. The key to your pursuit, I believe, is that you are committed completely to follow that truth wherever it may take you.
The Biblical passage to suggest this? Christ not only said I am the way, but he also said he is the truth. I do think your pursuit of truth is admirable. I met the Christ of Truth before I met the Christ of the Way, and it was to that truth I totally surrendered. How did it change my world view? I was totally involved in evolution, thought I had the world figured out, and was adept at making my point. Those first few months I had to rethink an awful lot of things, and there were many times I felt like I was being ripped apart mentally. It was a gruesome experience, not unlike the kind of experience given by Lewis in The Great Divorce. It felt like it was costing me everything I was, and I suppose the calling does indeed do that.So as far as I am concerned you can ask me anything, doubt everything, but have to be committed to finding Truth. If that is the way you are approaching this, you will do well on your journey. If not, then perhaps you need to mend your pursuit somewhat.
So does that make everything as clear as mud? Anyway I do thank you for inviting me to share your blog. I enjoy discussions and thoughts and things. Can you tell?
Mr. D
** Our previous comments:
Mr. D said...
C.S. Lewis of course came to faith from the opposite side. That is while you were reared in a church that perhaps emphasized feeling, and while a child you perhaps learned to feel and sense the presence of Christ.
Lewis,on the other hand,had a remote history (though he did indeed have a great grandfather who had been a reverend)from Christianity. He did struggle with girls and sexual behavior that was wild. But his history was remote in the sense that he was very well educated, and had not the feeling.
So he approached God from a knowledge basis, but in the end decided that he had to trust.Do you see what I mean when I am saying that is sort of the opposite spectrum from you? I think you are questioning and gaining your world views now, rather than at first.
Would you agree with that?
Miroslav said...
Mr. D,Thank you for your input! TRULY appreciated!
Yes, I agree that I was given the tools to be able to trust God emotionally and spiritually early on in life. But I don't know that my knowledge suffered as a result. Not sure if that is an implication from your comment.
I gained strong world views through my emotional and spiritual trust in Christ which propelled me to gain more knowledge of the Scriptures and Christian theology to support, challenge, and change said views. So yeah, it appears that our journey (mine vs that of C.S. Lewis) is very much the opposite.
Unfortunately, though my heart still desires to trust God and I've pursed education of the Bible and understanding of God's ways, I'm now left with a faith that could only be called "shaky" on a good day. I've gone my whole life questioning my faith and accepting the answers that Christ (and the Bible) give. Now, I don't have faith in those answers.
I agree that I am now questioning my world views and beliefs IN THEIR ENTIRETY for the first time in my adult life. Before my questions where always asked with an underlying faith in Christ and the Bible supporting my search for Truth. So this is a whole new ballgame for me now.
More thoughts from you on this path please!
posted by Miroslav at 4:59 PM
12 Comments:
Mr. D,
Your story is neither boring nor unlear to me. Thank you for sharing this part of it so openly!
This quote of yours I find curiously intriguing and will chew on it for a while:
"I met the Christ of Truth before I met the Christ of the Way, and it was to that truth I totally surrendered." - Mr. D
You also said something else that I've heard from other Christians, indeed I've said it myself in the past!:
"The key to your pursuit, I believe, is that you are committed completely to follow that truth wherever it may take you."
With your permission, I'd like to question what you mean by that statement. (and I'm curious what OTHER believers would think here too...)
Is it that you believe the key to my journey is to pursue Truth wherever it may take me, INCLUDING off the path of Christian theology/teaching for a time if it is in genuine pursuit of said Truth?
*OR*
Are you telling me that I must be willing to sacrifice all once I acknowledge Christ as Lord?
*OR*
BOTH? / NEITHER? :D
(Miroslav re-reads his writing) Sheesh. talk about clear as mud... :)
Let me approach this from another angle.
I have met Christians, very strong in faith, who would encourage other Truth seekers to pursue Truth at all costs... to be unrelentless in it. While unwilling to deny that there is only ONE WAY (through Christ), they would not discourage the study of the Buddha, the New Age movement, and/or science to be pursued with all of the seekers heart, mind, and soul. Nor do they seem too troubled by a person who embraces a worldview contrary to their own, for the believer is confident that the Truth of Christ shines through all the imposters to those who pursue Truth earnestly.
Other Christians put a slightly different twist on the same statement. They state boldly that the Truth will be found if one is only to knock, ask, and seek, but they will also rebuke as the seeker's journey takes them (from the believer's perspective) farther and farther from Christ.
Of course, neither camp could deny that ALL must be laid on the table once Jesus is believed to be the Christ for that is made very clear in the Bible. (Matthew 10)
***
If I were to try to distinguish the core diffence between the two camps that I've outlined, I would say that the first camp (those that would allow and even encourage the exploration of all things) seem to put more faith in God to reveal Himself to the seeker dispite what is front of the seeker's eyes... while the second camp (those that would discourage any exploration beyond the teachings of Scripture) appear to believe that those lessor things and false teachings have the ability to deceive, even genuine seekers, to the point of ruin.
Do all paths traveled by a genuine seeker of Truth lead to Christ?
(Dang! Once again, my spiritual scratching has dug down straight to the heart of the issue of Free Will & God's Sovereignty. The more I talk this stuff out, the more I remeber that this apparent contradiciton is at the core of my struggle with the message of Christ.)
Eireann,
I don't know how to do the cool E in your name. Teach me Sensai.
Hmm... me thinks it would be good to look up that verse. I have to imagine that the context would tell us that Paul was writing to believers, encouraging them not to squabble over issues that are not explicitely addressed in the Scripture. I could be wrong... (um, but I just about always take that as a given at this point)
If you try to apply the same "just do what we've been convicted of" mentality to the entire world, it gets tricky... particularly if you are trying to keep to the tenants of the Bible.
It seems to me that this thinking would ultimately end in bloodshed justified by conviction. Because although its a comforting thought that we all just carry on according to our convictions, it begins to present some enormously difficult challenges in its logic when you consider the RADICALLY different definitions of what "good" is, particularly if we have any personal role in confronting "evil" in this world.
Remember the African tribesman who mutilates his daughter at the age of 13. Is he not doing it in an effort to please his god(s) and to good in their sight? And if he is so convicted to continue... what do I make of my conviction to stop him for the girl's sake? (And all that written without any consideration for what the GIRL thinks is good... for surely many women have endured that and worse thinking it to be good!)
I need to take up drinking.
I'm serious.
No, I'm not really... but sometimes I wish I had a ON/OFF switch on this walrus-sized head of mine.
What verse were you talkin' about Eireann?
Eirenn,
You still didn't tell me how to do the ultra-kewl E.
Your thoughts did make sense. However, I don't think that you can really mix the idea of relative truth (even if disguised as "God sorting it out in the end") without distorting the message of Christ.
If you must hold to the idea of relative truth, I think logic and reason would force you to deny what Christ said and invent or accept a different god or system of beliefs.
Miroslav
I am not at all sure I am trying to be that esoteric in my application of truth. Truth is. And I suppose that is why Christians you are describing advocate a relentless pursuit of it. And I do not think that coming to Christ via Truth is a doctrine that I could teach. I do know a couple of men who have found Christ when I presented him that way. In both cases the men were as independent as I perceive myself to be, and have continued with their journey of faith for 30 years. Does that make it a doctrine? Of course not, but it seems that it is something that God will honor, at least sometimes.
I have told many others this over the years, and they did not come to faith. The difference I would say is in their unwillingness to commit to the truth. Of course that brings us back to your illustration of a man in a burning building waiting for God. Christians and non Christians are doomed to see things differently, at least in this present age. Do I think Christians are always specifically right? Of course not. But their attitude of faith is correct always. And that is the way God intended to make it so that we could never be sure of that which we hope for. This of course leads directly to a doctrine I have always thought scholars neglected. While I agree that salvation is the free gift of God, and unearned, I do think there is a price to be paid for that salvation. The price, it seems to me, was always something scholars avoided mentioning. It is the price of faith.
What is faith? Of course the standard def is that it is trust, and trust involves choice on the part of the individual. So I have always felt that eternal life is freely given, but purchased only for those who choose to trust.
When I argue this, my friends always correctly point out that apart from the grace of God and conviction of the Holy Spirit we could not even hear let alone come to Christ. But that belies the point: we still at some point have to choose to trust. In some sense that does repudiate at least part of the doctrines we learn about sovereignty. I think it is key to understanding our free will.
So I am not sure of anything doctrinal here- just that if your attitude is right truth is there to be found. That sounds like a platitude, and is somewhat circular, because faith is the foundation of both the Christ of the Way, and the Christ of the Truth. I do think there is a sharp difference in the way I look at it though. For one thing many come to Christ because they are offered eternal life; I came to Christ because he was truth, and only found out about the life stuff the next week.
Still stirring up the muddy waters I fear. . .
Pat
Yes... yes... I follow you on your thoughts here Mr. D! (at least I think I have)
If I've heard you correctly, you are suggesting that any genuine search for the Truth will guide me through the process of shooting down imposters, for surely I will realize it is not the Truth. And if by chance I settle on something other than what you have faith is the Truth, it is a result of my failure to be willing to fully commit to the Truth. And of course mixed in to this equation in no small amount is the issue of God's Sovereignty and our "free will"/choices. Did I get that right?
For me, the core of the problem is that the circularity of the reasoning surrounding God's Sovereignty and our "free will"/choices comes to an abrupt end in mind when I establish the beginning of it ALL in the hands of God. For who or what existed before God? Morals and definitions of love INCLUDED? (getting deep here)
If it was all started in his hands, is God not the author of EVIL? Is He not ultimately responsible for creating the unbeliever (albeit via the choices that Adam himself made)?
The image of a mad scientist comes to mind here who creates something with good intentions... Frankenstein for instance. But later, discovers the creation becomes a beast... a murderous beast. The scientist exclaims, "OH NO! What have I done?!" ... And none of us would blame him for taking the responsibility for what happened. But how much MORE responsbility would lay on the scientist's shoulders who did such a thing while KNOWING ahead of time that the creation become such a monster. Would there be any means to justify this action? Even for love? And what if millions of these creations where born, and only 1 out of 100 would turn out "salvageable", while the rest would lead tortured lives, damaging to both themselves and others... then would it be good? It is this concept I can't get my mind around AT ALL and keeps me from putting my faith where it has always been.
It is at this point that some will accuse me of being blasphemous, but I ask the questions as genuinely as I can, aware that I am sounding an aweful lot more demanding and less faithful than Job (though not nearly as justified as his cries were)... trying only to understand this God I've served to this point. Maybe I'm serving Him even now in my doubting... who knows. Or maybe He will come and correct my thinking.
Mr. D, I appreciate your straight forwardness mixed with gentleness. I couldn't ask for anything more.
Good Morning! After reading the above comments regarding your dialogue with Mr.D, I'm going to add my two cents worth.
I'm definitely not a theologian and the following response comes from a life seeking to walk with God for the past 40+ years. I want to respond to the idea of the God of the Universe being good. I've been studying the fruit of the spirit and two aspects of this are kindness and goodness. A comment that stirs in me a desire to allow Christ to display both aspects in my life is...
"Without kindness, goodness becomes harsh and self-righteous, yet without goodness, kindness becomes indulgent tolerance." How true this is!
When I read "every good and perfect gift comes from above, from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow", I believe in my heart that this includes both the good and the bad that impacts my life.
Corrie Ten Boom was asked at 85 years of age, when God had provided her with a home of her own in her declining years, "isn't God good to have provided you with this home?" Her comment was, "Yes, but God was good when I was in Ravensbruk. too!" Through her faith she experienced the goodness of God in the midst of horrendous suffering. I know she had questions, too, yet she was able to respond in faith in spite of not knowing all the answers.
As I've gone through a few years of deep emotional trauma, my faith in a good, loving, and faithful God has kept me from despair, though I don't have all the answers. More than that, my relationship with Him has brought peace, hope and joy even as I face an unsure future here on earth. I pray that eventually your journey will lead to this "peace that passes understanding". Love ya!!
Miroslav,
Is God the author of evil? In the sense that you describe, yes He is. He is the author of all creation, and if some of the creation has gone bad who else would be responsible? This would be true of Satan, the pain of the world etc.
But in another sense, God does not have anything to do with evil. The mystery of him creating man with the free will to choose, and the even greater mystery of his creating Lucifer are probably beyond all but our wildest speculations.
Have I wondered about it? Of course, for what thinking person would not? But the permutations are simply too wild for us to do more than guess. We do know this; we owe our lives to his creation and he has provided a way of rescuing us from our waywardness. No matter that he created us with the waywardness present and the ability to error. Still he provided a way to rescue us from this present darkness.
I used to think that it was all sort of a “game” in which God was moving the pieces and I was but a stupid pawn. But if it is, so what? It is not only the best game in town; it is the only game in town. Shall the clay say to the Potter, why have you made me thus? It is very interesting to see you speculating the same as perhaps Paul did, giving himself and us the answer of a nonanswer. There is no way to be sure.
But somehow I do reject that it is a game at all. Something in all of creation is going on here that is far beyond our ability to guess why or even what. For we are only told the barest particulars.
I really did like Curly’s comment about Corrie Ten Boom (did you know I met her?). It seems to me that the people who often have the least questions and believe the strongest are those who are in the concentration camps of life. Somehow they come through with a faith that is an unshakable rock. Do not even try to tell them that God is not good.
It is this concept I can't get my mind around AT ALL and keeps me from putting my faith where it has always been.
I am afraid you find yourself directly in conflict with Jesus here. He did spend a lot of time talking about the broad path to hell and the narrow path to heaven. He also asked the question, “When the Son of Man returns, will he find faith on the earth?”- clearly implying that faith was going to be hard to find.
I see your gentle spirit in conflict here. You love those around you and well you should. You assume that those with whom you share life are valuable and well you should. Did not Christ die for all? You experience the grace of God in being one of the elect and you assume that grace should be extended to all. But you error perhaps in not knowing that ideas and beliefs divide us in a permanent often irreconcilable manner.
Perhaps you would see this in your experience of breaking from your church. I suggest that because there was a time in my life when as chairman of the board of deacons, I had to walk away from my church. I had friends that I had spent years building friendship with and because of sinful non repentant behavior on the part of the senior pastor, I had to leave. Most of my friends did not understand- and to this day there are people I love whom I hurt by leaving. I knew the idea that that I had could not be proven; I also knew that I had a duty to leave.
It was over two years before the sin become evident to most people, and some of those friends did come back and re-establish fellowship. Ideas can and do split the best of friends. Why should they not split the world into totally different camps? I wonder if you felt that loss of friendship when you broke from your church. To me there is not much greater pain than having to leave the ones you love.
If ideas divide people, why is it not possible for those who reject Christ to put themselves in the other camp? What is God to do? He has given the answer and faith is the correct response. Is it then his fault because we tell him no?
Where is this argument leading? One of the outcomes that I see is in Romans 10. In creating the total depravity of man earlier in Romans, Paul tells us that apart from Christ we have no hope for we are all wicked. In Romans 8 he tells us that thanks be to God for Jesus Christ our Lord and that there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God. Romans 9 deals with election and keeping humility, but Romans 10 is really the summation of his whole argument. What are we to do with those who are perishing? Paul asks how shall we hear without a preacher, and how beautiful are the feet of those who carry the gospel.
Perhaps the guilt we feel toward being given so much should move us to sharing bread with another beggar. For if there is only one source of bread ought we not to be loudly declaring where it is to be found? If I have one regret, it is that I did not evangelize enough. Did you know evangelize means to announce? Announcing to starving beggars, which we once were and now are not by the grace of God, is perhaps the most important duty for Christians- after loving God of course.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family!
Pat
P.S. I still am thinking many of your questions are profoundly dealt with in The Problem of Pain. Perhaps you might consider giving it a thoughtful perusal again.
Curly,
Thank you for your prayers! I too hope that I can (once again) grab hold of that "peace that surpassing all understanding."
Corrie Ten Boom is certainly a great example of what the power of faith can bring you through!
Mr. D,
You wrote:
"I used to think that it was all sort of a “game” in which God was moving the pieces and I was but a stupid pawn. But if it is, so what? It is not only the best game in town; it is the only game in town. " - I agree with you fully here. While in the midst of this faith struggle, I am not saying that I don't like the idea of a fully sovereign god and am therefore turning my back on him or fighting him (although apparently that is precisely what some people make of my situation at first glance).
In an earlier comment you wrote:
"When I argue this, my friends always correctly point out that apart from the grace of God and conviction of the Holy Spirit we could not even hear let alone come to Christ. But that belies the point: we still at some point have to choose to trust."
Then, you wrote:
"What is God to do? He has given the answer and faith is the correct response. Is it then his fault because we tell him no?"
Reminds me of the old question, "Which came first the chicken or the egg?" Because we are told God is all powerful and all knowing, I have to logically lay the burden at His feet. Of course, this contradicts with other Scripture (and the whole of its message)... and so that is why I am where I am at today. :)
I have yet to be able to find peace in my inability to balance, or reconcile the two plain statements of Scripture that God is SOVEREIGN and yet we are responsible for our sins.
But I haven't lost hope that someday I will.
Miroslav, I appreciate your struggle.
Free will and God's sovereignty.
Mix that with dumb christian platitudes!(which we've all done)
I have been thinking about something that Dr. Earl Radmacher preached on. He said something to the effect that He was irritated about worship songs that said "Jesus is ruling now over all the world" He said Jesus is NOT ruling and reigning now. The prince of this world is! Jesus will, according to scriptures, we see. Just not yet.
Whoa,I think I stirred the pot.
I wish I could remember more.
Ever thinking and being challenged by YOUR thoughts,
K-d s
Miroslav,
I am wondering if we could take a different tack here. Do you accept the idea of an utterly evil person? A person who is so warped and evil and murderous so as to have put himself beyond redemption? Take the worst examples of humankind and surely you see evil.
And if you see it in just even one person, then it seems to me that some of the problems you are having come from trying to second guess God, and figure out his judgments. In other words, when you see suffering in fellow humans, and cry out unfair (as we all tend to do) are you not telling God that you know of a better way?
I think we all come to this point, at least if we think. But when we try to speculate about other ways God might have done it, we are in a very real sense trying to usurp his place. Which of course is utter foolish speculations for we do not know the whole picture- just a part, and a very small part if I understand the whole picture very well at all.
Mr. D
k-d s,
Actually, some Reformed Theologians believe that we are living under the rule and reign of Christ, just not in its complete and final form. George Mimmen posted something on this recently on his blog:
http://georgemimmen.blogspot.com
/2005/11/one-down-many-to-go.html
Mr. D,
Hmmm... to avoid taking an enitrely new direction in the dialoge in to moral reasoning (which is tricky ground given a shaky faith), I will skip to what appears to me to be your core question.
"In other words, when you see suffering in fellow humans, and cry out unfair (as we all tend to do) are you not telling God that you know of a better way?" -
Yes, I am crying out in sadness. Yes, I am saying it should not have to be so. But no, I do not claim that I have a better way. I don't see how that would be a reasonable conclusion for me to make given that I am an admittedly small and finite creature. How could I possibly address the issues that have plagued humanity throughout all history? No, thats not what I'm saying at all.
Instead, I say "I don't know." and I also say..."I don't see it." When I consider all I know and understand about the Bible and compare it to what I see on Earth... I just don't see it. I don't see God's love when I look at the human condition. I don't see goodness when I look at predestination. I don't see it.
But there is a difference between saying, "I don't see it" and stating, "Because I don't see it, it isn't there."
I'm reading that guy Bertrand Russell and I'll tell you... he makes some good sense sometimes. But MOST of the time, he toutes his logic and perspective so stinking high. I just don't get it. He is so ready to fully embrace faith in his own ability to reason through things that he condemns others willingness to embrace any type of faith that differs from him.
I don't think I'm taking such an arrogant approach, though some will undoubtedly disagree.
I do agree whole heartedly that what I see is so very small a piece of the entire picture. I go further though, and say that because my piece is so small, how can I reasonably place my faith beyond what I see? The answer (in my estimation) is that if indeed there is a supernatural Christ God, he must certainly intervene to help us creatures see this great and mysterious grander picture, for surely we cannot see it from where we stand!
I remain waiting for that help stuck on my little piddly square of the universe at this particular moment in time.
Miroslav,
We seem to be somewhat on the same page with respect to evil being in people. I do not think you are taking an arrogant approach at all; as a matter of fact what I think you are doing is asking the questions of a “Skeptical Thomas” and you are doing a pretty good job of it.
My point of the last question was just for this. What if God started the works of the world going in one direction, but man and Satan started it going in another? The rational way of dealing with that might have been to wipe the whole work out and start over, or figure the whole mess was not worth the effort, and not bother with starting over.
Instead God did something unexpected. He took that which was ruined and tried to redeem it. Christ died for the sins of the whole world. But the ruin of the world only allows some few to get faith (I do not believe, as maybe you have implied that God chooses some for faith and all the rest for hell. I simply do not believe that an understanding of sovereignty necessitates “injected” faith.). He is going to create something beautiful out of what appears so bleak.
I think that with this plan in place, God had boxed himself in. He had limited himself to not stop the world and remake it, but allowed it to find full course of its waywardness. The miracle that believers enjoy is that God does intercede and cause the natural laws to be superseded. His hand appears all throughout history despite the wickedness of the world. Note the recalling of Israel after thousands of years, just as he had promised. Has Israel shown repentance that they might expect his grace? Nay, not at all. Yet his hand is still the restorer.
What was God to do with the evil that was left? Could he turn it into heaven and just forget it? A god of goodness and perfect justice could not do that; it is one of the limits of a gracious god. I think so often of the characterizations C.S. Lewis had here for the mother. (Chapter 11, The Great Divorce, please look it over). A mother’s love, looked at by the world as an apex of love, is very cleverly shown to be possibly rooted in utter selfishness and wickedness. Could God allow or forget such evil? Only for those who receive no condemnation because of Christ?
One of the modern signs of God’s handiwork, though in ways I cannot fully understand is in one of Russell’s disciples- Huxley. He died on the same day as J. F. K. and C.S. Lewis. Huxley represented atheistic thought for “rational” man, Kennedy represented humanitarianism in all its imposed socialistic goals, and Lewis represented the rational believer. What are the odds of all three dying on the same day? It gives me the sense of being in a play where you and I are only bit players, not capable of understanding the full nuances of the whole production.
Pat
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