Various responses...
It occured to me tonight to begin keeping track of all the encouragement, advice, and... um responses that I've received from people when they hear the news that I no longer have much conviction or belief in Christ. Every person that I've told to date have been people that I care about, people I trust, and people that I have every confidence want whats best for me and my family. I believe their input was given out of love and the convictions of their heart. I do not intend for any of my expression here to by a reflection of any angst or frustration I have with any one individual. In truth, any frustration I have is directed toward the message of Christ, and entirely seperately, the message of the Church.
I will do my best to keep track of each new response that I get in this post, trying not to analyze the motives or intentions of the actual individual giving me response. It is my intent to, in seperate posts, give focus on how each of these various responses have struck me at this dark hour of my faith.
Responses 1-17ish (and growing) here!
1) "I will be praying for you."
2) "You need to stay in the Word..." or "in prayer..." or "in the fellowship of other believers..." - Sometimes it takes different forms: questions like, "Well, how have you been doing with your quiet times?" or "Have you been going to church?"
3) "Did you ever REALLY know Christ?" - This one also appears in other subtle ways. I've heard things like, "Did you ever feel like you had a personal relationship with Christ?"... or "Was it ever anything more than your father's faith?" ... or "Did you ever trust him with your whole heart?"
4) "You sound angry with God... are you?" - Along the same lines... "It sounds like you are disappointed with God." or "You seem to be unhappy that God is not the type of God you want him to be..."
5) "What would God have to do to prove to you He loves you?"
6) "Have you looked into the scientific evidence that proves that Christ raised from the dead? It really only requires a small amount of faith when you look at the evidence."
7) "Maybe what you thought was faith in Christ was really just faith in people..."
8) "I'm sad for you ... but not too concerned because I know that God is able..."
9) "Are you really seeking God with your whole heart?"
10) "I went through something like that once... but not quite to the same extent."
11) "There ARE answers to those tough questions you pose... you just have to look harder."
12) "The nation of Isreal turned their back on God, serving other idols... they challenged him to prove himself to them even though He had performed enormous miracles earlier. You need to be careful that you don't make the same mistake."
13) "How can I encourage you?"
14) "Wow... that seems like a really difficult place to be in. I don't think that I've gone through anything quite like that before. I trust that God has the ability to meet you right where you are at though, so I'm not too worried."
15) "Many characters in the Bible faced similair challenges with their faith."
16) "What do you do with the cross then and the claims of the resurrection? Have you read the book, "The Case for Christ" ? "
I will do my best to keep track of each new response that I get in this post, trying not to analyze the motives or intentions of the actual individual giving me response. It is my intent to, in seperate posts, give focus on how each of these various responses have struck me at this dark hour of my faith.
Responses 1-17ish (and growing) here!
1) "I will be praying for you."
2) "You need to stay in the Word..." or "in prayer..." or "in the fellowship of other believers..." - Sometimes it takes different forms: questions like, "Well, how have you been doing with your quiet times?" or "Have you been going to church?"
3) "Did you ever REALLY know Christ?" - This one also appears in other subtle ways. I've heard things like, "Did you ever feel like you had a personal relationship with Christ?"... or "Was it ever anything more than your father's faith?" ... or "Did you ever trust him with your whole heart?"
4) "You sound angry with God... are you?" - Along the same lines... "It sounds like you are disappointed with God." or "You seem to be unhappy that God is not the type of God you want him to be..."
5) "What would God have to do to prove to you He loves you?"
6) "Have you looked into the scientific evidence that proves that Christ raised from the dead? It really only requires a small amount of faith when you look at the evidence."
7) "Maybe what you thought was faith in Christ was really just faith in people..."
8) "I'm sad for you ... but not too concerned because I know that God is able..."
9) "Are you really seeking God with your whole heart?"
10) "I went through something like that once... but not quite to the same extent."
11) "There ARE answers to those tough questions you pose... you just have to look harder."
12) "The nation of Isreal turned their back on God, serving other idols... they challenged him to prove himself to them even though He had performed enormous miracles earlier. You need to be careful that you don't make the same mistake."
13) "How can I encourage you?"
14) "Wow... that seems like a really difficult place to be in. I don't think that I've gone through anything quite like that before. I trust that God has the ability to meet you right where you are at though, so I'm not too worried."
15) "Many characters in the Bible faced similair challenges with their faith."
16) "What do you do with the cross then and the claims of the resurrection? Have you read the book, "The Case for Christ" ? "
posted by Miroslav at 10:35 PM
7 Comments:
My brother, you know I love you and I am praying for you. I am not sorry that you doubt. Everyone doubts, but now you're starting to sound like you deny. I denied the Lord once, and He revealed Himself to me by bringing disaster after disaster until He brought me crumbling to my knees. I am praying that God will remove every obstacle and security you have in anything other than the Lord our God, and that it will be abundantly clear that the Lord has done this to you. You do realize that you will be held responsible for every word you speak for or against Christ. May the Lord discipline you swiftly so you will come back to your senses.
Aaron,
Yikes. Not sure how your thoughts apply to this particular post, though it does save me the time of typing your response in now that you've linked it to the appropriate spot! ; )
If you think I'm denying Christ in THIS post, maybe you had better not read on because it gets more tangibly and undeniably rough from here on out as I display my angst and turmoiled faith for all to see.
I have to say that I am pretty taken back by the severity of your statement. A prayer that God take all securities given to me and that it be clear to me that its him that did it TO me ?? Ouch. (Particularly a rough thing to say after sharing how you went through disaster after disaster. Not sure why you wouldn't take the ol' Galatians 6 approach and use gentleness if you believe me to be in a sin of some sort.) I'm also not sure how your hope for God's discipline upon me fits into Christ's model for prayer. May it never be that I wish such a thing upon you or your family!
To answer your implied question... I do completely understand that the Bible teaches that all idle words will be subject to judgement, yes the entirety of our lives. Every breath and moment. Every decision for or against Christ.
Aaron, you may want to discontinue reading my blog if you think that you have the obligation, duty, or ability to judge me and subsequently wish the Almighty's disclipline upon me. May he alone judge!
Furthermore, if I am to scripturally address your judgement of me and wishes of discipline upon me, I need to point you no further than the telling of the story of Doubting Thomas. Isn't it odd that Thomas demands specific proof before he will believe? And this is AFTER he has walked with Christ in an intimate way! Wouldn't you think a Christ that you portrayed in your comment, one that will strike with discipline at any who doubt (or your word deny) him, would have struck Thomas down or told him what eternal discipline awaited him? But thats not what we see outlined in the Gospels.
As a seperate issue, given my understanding of how you view Scripture and the gift of salvation, unless I'm mistaken, don't you hold to the view that God's preordained grace is irresistible? Why then use such a heavy hand when relating to me in this time of doubt?
For some reason, I can't shake the notion that taking a stance more in line with Christ's life would make more sense here. You know, he actually asked the Father's forgiveness of the people who were murdering him! How different is the tone in your comment to me!
And now, I've read some of your other posts... your comments seem very foreign to the harshness your wrote here. Not sure how you can point me to the story of Hezekiah (where God takes his spirit away from the man to test him) and at the same time bash me on the head by wishing discipline upone me for lack of faith! Couldn't it be that God has pulled away from me here, that HE is testing my heart? If that is the case, don't you think its best that he judge me for what is found?
Final thought: Maybe YOUR experience of denying Christ was a heck of a lot different than what I'm going through. Any chance you are projecting your past on me?
Baffled, but love ya' none the less,
Miroslav
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so harsh. I forget that I need to be gentle with those who doubt.
When I speak of the Lord's discipline, I am speaking of the discipline that saves us from staying where we are. When I say swiftly, I mean that I don't want you to stay in this state for a long time. Note I said discipline, not punish. I'm not praying like Pat Robertson for you to be punished. I'm praying for the Lord to make Himself reknown to you so you will come back to your senses, because if you continue like this (not doubting now and then, but denying (and correct me if I've misinterpreted your writings), you know what your future is. I want you and your family blessed with the joy of knowing the Lord, even at the expense of everything else. Knowing the Lord and finding indentity and satisfaction in Him is far greater. If I hated you, I would be content with your doubting and denial, perhaps even encourage it.
My comments may sound harsh, but I do write them in love. Of course, you must be willing to accept even scathing remarks since you allow even anonymous comments. But I will try to be more gentle in word and not repeat the same errors Job's friends did.
Aaron,
I love that you are so passionate in what you believe! Thank you for your dedication to pusuing this conversation from a more gentle position. Your citing of Job's friends beat me to the punch... a well intentioned and loving group of men, but they did not have all the answers, ya know?
Again, I thank you for your willingness to be a bit more gentle with this here wounded soldier.
Much love to you man.
*** ***
Imagine for a minute now that we are both brothers in Christ and that I'm simply discussing with you the most effective, Biblical way to help somebody with a faith that is crumbling around them, k?
You seem to be saying that you did not intend to ask for any sort of punishment to be measured out. Based only on what your wrote, I have to disagree with you.
In my understanding, the difference between punishment and discipline is that the former speaks only to the method, while the latter implies intent to change. They are not mutually exclusive. To clarify the point... I punish my son (by sending him to his room for instance) in order to discipline him (bring about a change in his character). Of course, there are also instances where punishment is inflicted for reasons much less noble than discipline, for retribution for instance, or as an outlet for anger.
I do take your previous comment to be a request to God to punish me. And with that said, I also know fully, 100% that you meant it from a loving heart! For I know by your actions that you care for me greatly! I believe you wished for punishment to be measured out for the sake of discipline for my ultimate salvation, right?
I just don't think that wishy clamity ("I am praying that God will remove every obstacle and security you have in anything other than the Lord our God, and that it will be abundantly clear that the Lord has done this to you.") and discpiline/punishment on somebody is the most effective, or Biblical, way of loving somebody wrestling with such weighty things.
The message of Christ shows, if nothing else, that God prefers to pursue mercy and grace rather than judgement and discipline.
How much more encouraging to pray for God's mercy in my life?
Glad to call you friend,
Miroslav
Yes... I share much of your same reactions Rhonda!
To be fair, some of the responses listed above did encourage me. (13, 14 , 15) I take comfort when people ask me how they can help me, for instance.
You know, the Christians who have encouraged me the most through this time are those who have treaded cautiously and with guardedness... making every effort to nudge me only ever so softly back towards Christ.
Ever hear this quote? I wish people would apply it more often when speaking with me about this intimate and sensative topic.
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood.
Miroslav,
I've felt pretty useless in giving you any kind of meaningful input in this time of your personal crisis. I think my quiet ways may have fooled you into thinking I'm a lot deeper than I really am, but it seems like you've got a pretty sophisticated audience weighing in on your various questions and concerns.
I admire your fervor in trying to find answers. I honestly don't understand much of the intellectual debate in this blog -- if anything, it has made me feel even less certain about where I stand.
Your "seek first to understand ..." (concept found in "Getting To Yes" and "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People") quote reminds me of a great paradigm shift I had in a communications class years ago. We were taught that one barrier to communications was trying to solve someone's problem! The idea was that by merely offering someone various solutions when they are confiding a problem, you aren't really listening ... What a person may be saying is "I want to be comforted or reassured" not "I need a solution to this problem". This has really stuck with me because my tendency is to try to solve problems before I try to really connect to how someone is feeling.
I'm not suggesting that you aren't looking for solutions, just that most of the responses you listed fall into this category. Interesting that you did find some comfort in #13-#15 which were not the typical solution-to-your-problem responses.
I have a feeling you will eventually become bored or disappointed with the question!-answer!-response!-challenge!-rebutal! sparring in this blog. There are countless books that probably do a better job addressing your concerns (and you've probably already read them!).
I wonder if there might be a different response #17 to add to your list?
17) This too shall pass ...
17) Relax/chill ...
17) Get in your mirth bubble ...
I just get this feeling that you're pushing too hard to try to find a solution that will solve your problem RIGHT NOW.
I think the process of life can be more important than the outcome.
Some things can be seen better when you're not staring right at them: certain faint stars can be detected by looking slightly away from them ... American Indians would employ a technique of "softening the eyes" in order to see an animal's trail.
While you're waiting for the dust to settle, enjoy the process of simply being ... being the best dad and husband you can by loving and enjoying your family, for example.
Edo,
Thank you for the words of encouragement.
I definately think I've found some sort of odd peace at where I am at over the last couple of days. Its not always easy, and sometimes my heart and brain seem to be tearing in two... but I am somehow able to still have my sanity through it all. And not just that. I'm smiling more and laughing more than I have in a long long time. The conversations that you and I have shared have helped me to realize that I don't have to have all the answers in order to be able to enjoy life.
Part of what might appear to be me pushing too hard is simply part of who I am. From somebody looking at me, and this blog from a distance ... they may think that I'm all consumed by this thing, and these questions. The fact of the matter is that I do have a "drive" inside of me. I push and push in just about every area of life. That is a part of what has lead to much of the success that I've had in life. But it can also be very tiring. With these heavy life issues, I do have to be careful not to let myself push the ball so far up the mountain only to tucker out and have it squash me as it rolls back down! Thanks for helping look to find the balance more often!
Oh, what the heck is a "mirth bubble?" Even google didn't know.
I think I will go get some peyote and make like them Indians now to help me see the stars better. ;)
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